1.31.2007

Late Night Shots Members Take on Sexual Assault

I realized it's been a while since I had checked the Late Night Shots forums. Ever since Wonkette started giving them a hard time, the "shockingly offensive" statements kind of dropped off. Luckily I was bored this morning and I caught a discussion on "Take Back the Night" festivities.

(If you don't know, Take Back the Night is when a bunch of women march on campuses with candles chanting anti-sexual assault slogans. It's meant to raise sexual assault awareness. I think it's a little silly and would rather see people focus their efforts on rape prevention and victim counseling, but it's a good cause with good intentions.)

Apparently, some dudes at Late Night Shots are not keen on the idea of women marching on campus to protest sexual assault. Here are some choice quotations from the forum*:

~Did anyone else have a bunch of girls with candles hold one these outdoor parties in their honor during college? I'm pretty sure they wanted to take back the night I blacked out and took them down in my frat love den. Grrrr.

~A better solution would be to promote going to AA - then these silly take back the night vigils wouldn't occur and inconvenience everyone

~I'm a woman, and I certainly don't think sexual violence and rape is funny. But the feminazis holding the candles are just jokes.

I personally like the idea of any woman protesting rape being called a feminazi. Way to heighten the discourse, LNS.

~...Not that I condone sexual assault, but what a man or woman does in a drunken haze then "regrets" the next morning is NOT sexual assault.

Sexual assault is the forcible or unwanted sexual contact with another without their consent.

I hardly see how holding candles and making false allegations to nameless faces will address the true problem.


Not to sound harsh, but may be some of these "supposed" victims should wear more clothing or avoid "high action" areas.

I feel it detracts from the real victims who actual need help.

The emphasis is mine. I especially like this statement because it's not an attempt at (unfunny) shock humor. This guy is serious. And he is woefully misguided. What an asshole.

~Aren't the girls who get "taken advantage of" just the less than hot chicks that dudes dont respect?

~Take Back the Night is when all the PCU-like hippies, emos, and other dregs of society come out of the woodwork.

The worst part is seeing those sanctimonious guys who think they're going to finally touch a vag because they're actively and passionately involved in the event (passing out ribbons, giving speeches, "raising awareness") - they are akin to my recent post about girls' friends that are Benedict Arnolds/Silent Assassins and should be held in the same contempt.

I guess I am a Benedict Arnold for being anti-rape. Fuck. Did I just lose my man card?

~Again, these take back the nighters need to go to AA and not this rally. The problem is that it is pretty much asking for it if you stumble into a frat-bash after party at 3am and jump into bed with some guy who you thought was your boyfriend in Sigma Chi but you somehow ended up at SAE instead - and no, that's not Johnny Wonderful lying next to you the morning after.

According to some people active in LNS, alcohol = consent. Cleavage = consent. Parties = consent. These guys need to be kicked in the balls. Hard.

~Nevertheless, the fact remains that several false accusations deter the credibility of actual assaults. I think what a girl wears is demonstrative of her intent. I do not think any rationale person can say that if a girl is my fraternity house at 3AM that she has any intent to do anything but something that is sexual in nature. However, she does reserve the right to say no at all times. However, if her friends are pulling her away and she insist on staying that could be grounds for espousing how she wants to end the night. Absent a contract, which is not enforceable in a court of law, consensual intercourse is a sticky subject.

A college girl, or otherwise, leaves her unwilling victim at the mercy of her regretability. When proof is scant, as it often is, circumstantial evidence and the intent of both parties is necessary to prove whether the sexual contact was consensual.

It is foreseeable to say that if a girl wears almost nothing she is not per se "asking for it" but reasonable minds could differ on her willingness. Moreover, what stops a girl from say "yes" in the morning and then realizing that her sorority sisters saw her with guy #5 and she is thus labeled a slut.


Now, she could remedy that situation by saying that guy #5 assaulted her. What is fundamental about this discussion is that a girl's sexual promiscuity, her attire, and demeanor (before and after) the event is tantamount to deciding whether she in fact did or did not consent. I believe the Kobe Bryant example is a case in chief. The Duke case speaks volumes as well.


Ahhh! Oh my God! I didn't think people still thought like this! This is crazy. Mind-blowingly crazy.

I met some of the founding members of LNS when I went to their Election Night Party. They were very nice and they said they wanted to clean up the forums so they can look more respectable. That obviously didn't work out. There are active members in this organization who disrespect women and women's sexuality. I hate to be this crude (especially knowing that my parents will read this), but the guys leaving these comments clearly see college women as little more than cumbuckets. A warm place to put their dicks. And if they're wearing a low cut shirt at a frat party, it's not like they're going to mind, right?

I understand that being falsely accused of sexual assault or date rape is very, very, very scary for men. But lots of women are assaulted. I'm willing to bet that almost all of my readers have had (or currently have) a friend that has been sexually assaulted. I don't think candlelight vigils are the best way to bring attention to this, but I also don't think that mocking these women is in any way acceptable. Late Night Shots should be ashamed of itself.

*That forum is only open to members. Want to be a member and join in the fun? E-mail me and ask for an invite.

46 comments:

  1. Rusty, you are a real man.

    And to read more myths about rape go here www.dcrcc.org/myths.htm.

    Most of those guys are talking out of their asses but date rape is very serious. Make fun of people with candles all you want but if it was you or someone you know that was attacked, regardless of her clothes or her alcohol intake you'd be (or should be) very concerned for them.

    If you've been raped please seek medical attention and counseling. If you are a rapist, please fall in a hole and die.

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  2. thanks for linking to this and showing your outrage. the late night shots people are mind-bogglingly backwards. i'm not surprised they think this way about rape, but am shocked nonetheless. what a bunch of...well, normally we'd call them douchebags, but this is reprehensible.

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  3. "~I recently found out that in many states if a girl is under 21 and has consumed alcohol, than she (legally) loses the right to consent."

    I love how this dimwit converts legal incapacity to give consent (i.e. even "yes" doesn't amount to "consent", so you can't screw 'em) into a denial of a woman's revocable "right" to give consent. According to Captain Dimwit, then, 8-year-olds and passed-out ladies don't have a "right" to consent, so they're fair game. What?!?

    Also, "contract wouldn't be binding in a court of law" -- that's the definition of a written, signed contract! That's the whole dispute over oral "consent": it's "absurd" to force people to obtain written consent. aaaah...

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  4. so the moral of the story is don't fuck anyone from LNS....

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  5. Why would you want to fuck an LNS-er anyway? They're pretty clearly all twatwaffles.

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  6. Thank you for calling attention to the ignorance that unfortunatly surrounds this issue. I cannot believe that people under the age of 50 still hold beliefs like this. While i enjoy making fun of the LNS, i really thought this whole thing was super disturbing.

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  7. These guys are what pepper spray was invented for.

    That being said, a girl in a low-cut shirt hanging out in a frat house at 3am ... that's pretty fucking stupid. That's like walking through Anacostia at 3am flashing a huge wad of cash. You're inviting bad people to do bad things to you.

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  8. Some of these guys sound like Tony Snowe wanna-be's.

    I can hear it now...

    "The President is concerned that Take Back the Night will embolden the enemy."

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  9. Repeal the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Before it's too late.

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  10. Awesome post, Rusty. Thanks for standing up and making your voice heard on this issue. Rock on.

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  11. I bet Rusty thinks Mike Nifong is a competent and ethical D.A.

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  12. I don't know what went on at frat houses at other colleges at 3 a.m., but as far as my school was concerned, it wasn't that treacherous, drunk or sober... too many people around. a dorm room on the other hand, that was fucking dangerous.
    as for the low-cut shirt stuff, that may be the biggest fallacy of all. Rapists rape... they don't much care about fashion... and the idea that I, as a woman, have to dress in a way that counteracts a man's ability to restrain himself is complete fucking bullshit.

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  13. Anonymous, no I don't. Don't let one almost certainly false rape accusation legitimize what the dunderheads are saying on LNS.

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  14. "and the idea that I, as a woman, have to dress in a way that counteracts a man's ability to restrain himself is complete fucking bullshit."

    well said Danielle.

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  15. As a girl who has unfortunately had some experience with this, I think rape is an extremely serious issue, and the comments on LNS are inexcusable. Rusty, I appreciate you addressing it as the serious issue it is.

    However, I do think girls who insist that they can wear whatever the hell they want and boys should just deal with it, blah, blah, are either stupid or really do want that kind of attention. I agree that its not fair to have to think 'maybe I should't get all skanked up tonight so I don't give boys the wrong idea' every time you go out, but come on kids, life isn't fair and it just might help avoid potential scary situations...what is it worth to you?

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  16. Rusty,

    You're right. Your parents may read it. "Seminal fluid receptacle" would have been a better choice. Don't alienate potential allies to your noble cause. Need a Thesaurus for you B'day?

    III

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  17. Cut the fake outrage crap, Rusty. We all know you're just trying to touch a vag. You vag toucher, you.

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  18. I don't know what's worse - how scary these guys sound, or how pathetic they are. From their posts, many have anger issues with women, or at the very least cannot cope with the sexuality of women. The posts portraying men as the "victims" in these situations, all of which somehow end up as the woman trying to conceal her apparent promiscuity with an assault charge.

    I don't know if this is just Internet Tough Guy talk on their end, but if somebody started saying shit like this in a bar, there would be a problem.

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  19. Let's see. A drunk male who goes to bed with some scag and wakes up the next morning without having given her consent to rape him is not likely to have a case. A drunk female who goes to bed with some scag without having given him consent to rape her is very likely to have a case. If I were a woman I would be very resentful of that unequality between the sexes. Treats women as if they were children without enough maturity to take responsibility for their own drunken actions.

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  20. Other quotes from that thread:

    "Don’t get me wrong, this vigil didn’t really produce many immediate results, but to all the people out there that have been assualted or have had a loved one assaulted, I just think that this is one subject we might not want to breech with our sarcasm."

    "I like when you boys are offensive, but this is maybe a bit much."

    "pretty sure Take Back the Night was a vigil launched to bring attention to the growing problem of violence and sexual assault against women. we all use charities and such as an excuse to party, but this is just in bad taste."

    "Take Back the Night at my school was not an opportunity to call people out and wherever that happened, the organizers have completey ruined the credibility of its true intention. And I cannot believe you just made the “she was asking for it” argument. go to hell."

    "Let’s really not get into this discussion. I was assaulted freshman year of college by a guy who weighed twice my size, as I repeatedly said no. He had walked me home from a party and forced his way into my dorm room. The only reason it didn’t escalate into rape is because my roommate walked in and he freaked and left. What I was wearing is completely irrelevant, but the nonsense about telling a woman not to dress like she’s “asking for it” is just that, nonsense."

    "I find this whole thread in poor taste"

    "TheHun, shut the fuck up. You are pretty much making me sick. I guarantee there are girls on here who didn’t in anyway “ask for it,” and still were assaulted. I hope you get sterilized, because God help the poor girl that is your daughter, you pathetic joke of a man."

    "This thread makes me cringe. I dont have any sympathy for those girls who cry date rape in the morning when they feel guilty for being all over a guy the night before, but real physical rape is awful and its just not funny at all. Kill this thread."

    "as a guy who knows of a few close friends who have been sexually assaulted, this thread sickens me. I thought most of you guys were “southern gentlemen.” Some of the above reasons for consent are just asinine. Grow up, treat women with respect, and best of luck getting into heaven."

    The overwhelming majority of comments were along those lines, and I can't find something like a third of the comments you quoted so presumably the most offensvie were deleted quickly by the site admin.

    I could selectively quote from almost any closed message board and make the posters collectively look like a bunch of idiot douchebags. Rusty and Wonkette have turned this into an art form.

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  21. When I found this thread at around 10:30am, the majority of these comments were either making light fun (something I am fine with and didn't bother to post here) or were extremely derogatory against women and their right to consent. Perhaps I caught the thread before others in LNS could denounce it.

    No matter. There is clearly something rotten with the state of LNS that someone could post a joke about Take Back the Night and have the thread turn into a sexist and demeaning thread.

    I sympathize with your objection to my selective quoting. If someone wanted to, they could take all the crazily racist comments posted on this blog and just run with them. But when I posted this, there were very few rebuttals to these terrible sentiments.

    I used only selected quotations. But I certainly found enough of them to allow a very long post. If I fou8nd those kind of sentiments on my blog, I would go back to turning off comments just like when some asshole around here started dropping N-bombs.

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  22. And re your claim of the "overwhelming majority"...It's not quite ture and it doesn't really matter. I counter around 25 horribly offensive posts out of 64. 40% of the thread making these comments is still shameful.

    Let's not forget this one:

    "Take Back The Night Head Organizer, North Carolina Chapter:
    http://tinyurl.com/ywo4jw "

    Hilarious. Because people who want to take back the night are clearly faking it.

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  23. The day that the Take Back The Night crowd stops blindly supporting every woman who accuses someone of rape, no matter how outlandish the story (see: Duke), I think you'll find that people like those quoted here will start giving that crowd significantly more respect. I won't hold my breath.

    Rape in any form is a horrific crime, as is falsely accusing someone of a crime that could result in that person spending years in prison. Alcohol, skimpy clothing, or being in a fraternity house late night does not equal consent, but neither does regret in retrospect equal lack of consent.

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  24. "Let's not forget this one:

    "Take Back The Night Head Organizer, North Carolina Chapter:
    http://tinyurl.com/ywo4jw ""

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the women who falsely accused those Duke lacrosse players of rape, aided and abetted by the Duke TBTN people?

    I fail to see what's so offensive about that. I personally can't think of anyone that has done more to set back the cause of actual rape victims than the Duke TBTN crowd.

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  25. Anon,

    That is the Duke accuser. I hate that woman. You're missing the point. Calling her the "President of the NC Chapter of Take Back the Night" is saying that all those women who are marching are faking it. It's diminishing all the victims of sexual assault who are marching. Calling her the leader of an anti-rape movement is an attempt to make rape seem trivial.

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  26. In all seriousness, awesome post.

    Aside from that...

    CUMBUCKETS!!!!!!!

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  27. Considering that the overwhelming majority of rape victims are men... oh, that's right, rape in prison doesn't count since the victim is a "bad person" and "deserves it". Is that all that far removed from "she was asking for it"?

    The fact of the matter is that most rape crisis centers and rape awareness organizations project this as a serious problem for women and only really a crime when a woman is the victim. You cannot expect your position to be defensible when it's internally inconsistent. If something is a violation of another person's rights then it's a violation of their right regardless of who the victim is.

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  28. Homosexual male rape is something that people are coming around too. Laws are evolving to protect male victims. A woman raping a man is much more rare because of obvious anatomical issues and the fact that men tend to be much stronger than women. Rape isn't necessarily an issue of sexuality, but rather an issue of power.

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  29. By LNS logic, it's also the children's fault-- what they wear and how they act-- that is to blame for the catholic priest molestation coverup.

    so fucked up.

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  30. LNS is a joking platform. No one that posted on that private forum was serious. In the meantime please relax and don't take yourselves so serious. I for one find humor in all subjects even taboo issues. Maybe you can lighten up and live a little.

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  31. Rusty, I am with you here 100%. Please don't associate my friends or my bright smile with those assholes.

    -90 watts of pure shit eating grin.

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  32. No. You are wrong. There were some people joking. I posted jokes that were way out-of-line and refrained from posting jokes that were innocuous (like the guy claiming he got raped by the cast of CATS).

    I also posted the people that were deadly serious. Obviously some people were joking on the thread ('cause rape is funny!), but some people really think that low-cut shirts = consent.

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  33. There are obviously a lot of LNS apologists turning up on here.

    Technically, I am fairly certain one can't consent to sex when intoxicated but we also don't want to turn into Oberlin College with their "rules" (remember those?)

    I hate when things like this Duke situation happen, one highly publicized event to discredit every other woman who has been assulted.

    As far as dress, women should dress how they like but there's also common sense - - make sure your friend gets home safely, stick together, etc.

    You can't expect some men not to be predatory, but it is shocking seeing it publicly displayed on this platform. I mean, women kind of think that SOME men think that way, but we hope they don't, and at least if they think that way they would be too ashamed to vocalize it...

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  34. Sarah, you have a point. There is something to be said for common sense and not potentially putting yourself in a dangerous situation (i.e., I don't stumble around my neighbourhood drunk at 3AM). Still, who the hell gave the rapist the right to "teach her a lesson" and claim "she asked for it?" It's not like he's thinking "hmm . . . maybe years of emotional trauma and potentially grevious physical harm will make her think twice before taking the shortcut through that alley again!"

    I know you're not saying that, but I feel compelled to put it up there. My thesis was on the legal treatment of acquaintance rape. Damn -- does that mean I lose my man-card too?

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  35. Tomato, I think that having LNS guys say you're not a man for being unwilling to defend rape is kind of like Republicans saying Democrats are unAmerican for not supporting the war. And I bet a lot of the LNS guys fall into both buckets (hopefully full of cum!)

    That said, I don't think that how women dress has anything to do with rape, as a lot of people have noted, rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power.

    I think that the LNS demographic has a lot of men who aspire towards power - the DC kind, Junior Hill douchebag types - and part of that is over women. They're already aggressive but not very smart so this is just another manifestation of their personalities.

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  36. Bravo, Sarah M! Well put.

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  37. My favorite LNS apologist story:
    "Oh, they're just being sarcastic and ironic."
    By that rationale, there's enough irony to fill 50 Wes Anderson movies. Fuck that. I don't buy that.

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  38. Days of Broken ArrowsFebruary 01, 2007

    This is an issue in the UK as well:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23729-2577435,00.html

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  39. r, thanks for the post.

    sarah m, many props.

    this subject bothers me to illen my tummy.

    thought this mentality was socialized out a generation ago. hoped!

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  40. Maybe i'm missing something here, but what does this have to do with hating DC?

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  41. Late Night Shots is an organization that started in Washington, DC and is made up of mostly DC residents.

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  42. " However, I do think girls who insist that they can wear whatever the hell they want and boys should just deal with it, blah, blah, are either stupid or really do want that kind of attention."

    It is precisely this mentality that forces women to cover up in burkas, veils, hijabs, and chadors. I would venture, based on experience, that those women are more abused than the average Western woman. So I'll take my miniskirt and drivers license over so-called "modesty" any day, thank you.

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  43. Name this film quote:

    "Maybe he'll get AIDS when he date-rapes her."

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  44. ~I'm a woman, and I certainly don't think sexual violence and rape is funny. But the feminazis holding the candles are just jokes.

    I said this on LNS, and I stand by it. TBTN is a largely anti male event founded on the premise that rape is entirely the fault of men, even men who've never raped anyone. And I say this as a victim of sexual assault who went to TBTN hoping to channel my feelings on the matter into something positive.

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  45. AnonymousJuly 13, 2007

    The only thing this thread proves is that men are no longer worthy to be called human.

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  46. That is the Duke accuser. I hate that woman.

    Rusty, what reason do you have to hate that woman? Saying something like that undercuts your main argument about supporting women who have suffered from sexual assault.

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